Here We Go Again …

This was the headline in a column about the Arizona shootings in the Sunday Guardian out of London.

“In the US, where hate rules at the ballot box, this tragedy has been coming for a long time”

And then the sub-headline:

“The shooting of Gabrielle Giffords may lead to the temporary hibernation of rightwing rage, but it is encoded in conservative DNA”

Yes, the Guardian is a far left piece of work so we shouldn’t be surprised by the  shallowness or visceral hatred of conservatives by one of its pundits.  But the same message, in slightly less outrageous form, is the topic of much conversation in the American media too.

There is grave concern about the “vitriol” and “anger” in American politics and commentary.  It was all over the Sunday talk shows and on page one of the New York Times under the headline “Bloodshed Puts New Focus on Vitriol in Politics.”

Here we go again.

After Timothy McVeigh blew up the Federal Building in Oklahoma City in 1995, liberals in the media played connect the dots back to conservative talk radio.

Dan Rather said, “Even after Oklahoma City, you can turn on your radio in any city and still dial up hate talk; extremist, racist, and violent from the hosts and those who call in.”

Time magazine senior writer Richard Lacayo put it this way:  “In a nation that has entertained and appalled itself for years with hot talk on radio and the campaign trail, the inflamed rhetoric of the ‘90s is suddenly an unindicted co-conspirator in the blast.”

Carl Rowan, the late columnist, was quoted in a Washington Post story saying that, “Unless Gingrich and Dole and the Republicans say ‘Am I inflaming a bunch of nuts?’ you know we’re going to have some more events.  I am absolutely certain the harsher rhetoric of the Gringriches and the Doles … creates a climate of violence in America.”

And David Broder wrote in the Washington Post that, “The bombing shows how dangerous it really is to inflame twisted minds with statements that suggest political opponents are enemies.  For two years, Rush Limbaugh described this nation as ‘America held hostage’ to the policies of the liberal Democrats, as if the duly elected president and Congress were equivalent to the regime in Tehran.  I think there will be less tolerance and fewer cheers for that kind of rhetoric.”

As that great American philosopher Yogi Berra might say:  “This is déjà vu all over again.”

Now, we hear not about Gingrich and Dole, but about Sarah Palin and those bullseyes she put on a map depicting congressional districts that were in her crosshairs during the mid-term election.  Frankly, I think Ms. Palin pulled a real dumb move with those bullseyes.  But unless we find out that the shooter was influenced by those icons – or saw them, or even knew they existed – then why drag Sarah Palin into this?

There’s also been a lot of talk about supposedly extreme and dangerous rhetoric in other conservative circles.  Glenn Beck, Bill O’Reilly and Rush Limbaugh came in for special treatment by Keith Olbermann on MSNBC. What else is new? But again, unless it turns out that their words influenced the gunman, then why bring it up now?

Paul Krugman, the left-wing New York Times columnist, went on line to say that “Violent acts are what happen when you create a climate of hate.  And it’s long past time for the GOP’s leaders to take a stand against the hate mongers,” two of whom he mentioned by name:  Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh.  This without a scintilla of proof that the shooter was influenced by either of them.

And then there’s Sheriff Clarence Dupnik, the top Arizona law enforcement officer investigating the shooting.  He too believes there’s too much hate and vitriol in the air – on radio and television – and, as he put it, “words have consequences.”  But when Fox News anchor Megyn Kelly asked the sheriff if there was anything he had discovered that suggested the gunman was “listening to radio or watching television and was in any way inspired by what he heard or saw,” the sheriff said he had no such evidence.

Who needs evidence when your mind is already made up, when you just know those hate-mongering conservatives are responsible, directly or otherwise, for the massacre in Tucson.

The sad fact is that some people are just plain nuts.  They might go off after seeing a red balloon or Mickey Mouse or reading a recipe on a box of Betty Crocker cake mix.  That’s why we say they’re unstable and unhinged.  We don’t know as of this writing what motivated the gunman in Arizona.  And until we do, journalists — even opinion journalists — should stop playing connect the dots.

It’s interesting, and not in a good way, that the same liberals who are so concerned about supposedly hateful conservative speech polluting our national conversation never seemed especially bothered by all the talk about President Bush being a “war criminal” and a “Nazi.”

Nor were they especially outraged over the movie “Death of a President” which was about the assassination – not of some fictional generic presidsent – but of President George W. Bush specifically.

And were my sensitive liberal friends thrown into a tizzy when in June of 2008, during the presidential campaign, candidate Barack Obama said,  “If they [Republicans] bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun”?

No!  Somehow all of this flew beneath their normally fine-tuned radar.

The terrible tragedy in Arizona should not be one more tiresome liberal vs. conservative debate.  But that’s what some liberals have turned it into.  Without a shred of evidence that the gunman was influenced by Palin, Beck, O’Reilly, Limbaugh or the tea partiers, the opportunists on the Left are fretting about the vitriol in our national conversation allegedly brought on by these supposed right-wing villains.  But what the conservative-bashers are really doing is simply taking a page out of the Rahm Emanuel playbook.  They’re not going to let this crisis, or any other, go to waste.

  • find a roofer

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  • http://www.blurb.com/user/store/DanFarfan Dan Farfan

    “And then there’s Sheriff Clarence Dupnik, the top Arizona law enforcement officer investigating the shooting. He too believes there’s too much hate and vitriol in the air – on radio and television – and, as he put it, “words have consequences.” But when Fox News anchor Megyn Kelly asked the sheriff if there was anything he had discovered that suggested the gunman was “listening to radio or watching television and was in any way inspired by what he heard or saw,” the sheriff said he had no such evidence.”

    Sad to say, Dupnik and the shooter have something in common. They want their voice to matter more than it does. Thank goodness that alone doesn’t trigger mental illness in all humans. Otherwise we might not have survived as a species for more than a generation or two after the invention of the newspaper.

  • http://www.blurb.com/user/store/DanFarfan Dan Farfan

    “But unless we find out that the shooter was influenced by those icons – or saw them, or even knew they existed – then why drag Sarah Palin into this?”
    Because some folks understand THEIR voice reaches far more people by mentioning someone that other folks like to mention, whether the mention is a positive one or negative, whether the mention is a legitimate one or not.

    However, with that in mind, as a capitalist I can’t fault commentators (or any business owner) for supplying (legally) what their customers demand. If the folks quoted in this piece didn’t jump on that particular bandwagon what category would their comments be? Reasonable? Rational? Responsible? Enlightened? And where exactly is the distribution mechanism to reach the audience that demands (and pays for) that?

    The knee jerk (easy) reaction is to say, well, the other side of course. Hmmm.

    Both “sides” in this country for all their wondrous differences and sameness have one thing ugly in common: Neither has (enough? any?) people of courage to police their own folks and call out, by name, and rigorously refute flawed “insight” when someone drops the rhetorical ball off the court of public analysis. In science, we use peer review.

    I predict whichever “side” steps (grows?) up and accomplishes the “internal” challenge of policing itself will have a big advantage in elections, because they’ll suddenly find themselves admired by millions of voters “in the center.”

    Dan
    - The Next 10 Amendments

  • Ken Besig, Israel

    According to the Democrats, the Liberals, Paul Krugman, and the New York Times, everybody saw this shooting coming, given the harsh and incindiary Tea Party and Republican anti progressive, anti Democrat, and anti Liberal rhetoric.
    If everybody saw this coming, how come no one did anything to prevent it before it happened?

    • Paul Macey

      Ken, With all due respect, the comment is daft.

      • Bruce A.

        Kens comment is not daft. The mainstream media is daft for continuing to blame talk radio, Sarah Palin & Fox News over one week after this senseless act by an apparent lunatic.

        • Kane Weinberg

          It is a weird comment. The atmosphere in the country was very charged. Town hall meetings were very animated and tea party rhetoric was very charged. No one gets arrested unless a very clear threat or present intent to violence is made. It was clear that the less sophisticated members of our community could be adversely affected.

          • Paul Courtney

            Your own comment shows the insight of Besig’s comment. If the effect on the “less sophisticated” was so clear to you, Dupnik, etc., why was Sheriff Dupnik sitting at the donut shop instead of watching the “less sophisticated”(won’t digress to who you mean)? The Dupnik line was too good to pass, but the fact is we don’t blame him or others for failing to foresee this, we blame them for saying violence from the right (even when it’s not the right) is foreseeable from the “charged” atmosphere. In the face of countless examples of “highly charged” left wing rhetoric (listened to any sermons by Rev. Wright lately?), and plain facts that the shooter was not even aware of right wing rhetoric, I’m right now listening to yet another npr segment on the awful lack of civility. You folks just won’t let facts shake you off this narrative. I’m all for civility, and practice it, but politics ain’t tiddly-winks, and the 1st amendment clearly protects “charged rhetoric”. Keep working on it, though, maybe some nut charged by rhetoric will launch an attack, and you’ll all be primed (not leftie nut, of course-he’ll be totally disconnected from rhetoric).

          • Kane Weinberg

            Paul,

            This I america NOT the middle east. You get arrested for crimes commited or for actions beyond mere preparation towards commiting a crime. No one gets arrested because you may have a propensity to commit a crime or to, vaguely, incite others to commit crimes!! The first amendment does not protect “incitemet to murder”. A lot of public pundits are pushing their luck too far.

  • http://bernardgoldberg daryl duke

    Why is it that we never hear about Air America and it’s pundits. Radio of hate, listen to A.M.

  • Bob Hadley

    “I’m always amused when my hyper-sensitive liberal friends cringe at a joke involving race. Cringing is how liberals show their racial manners. It’s how they say, ‘I’m a good white person. I don’t approve.’”

    “Liberals are always showing how good they are when it comes to race. That’s why they support affirmative action programs. It’s their way of cleansing themselves of America’s historic racial guilt. ‘You see,’ they announce to the world, ‘I’m not one of the bad white people. I’m not a racist like the many others who just happen to look like me.’”

    “The Rich – otherwise known in liberal circles as the filthy, no good, greedy, heartless rich.”

    I could cut and paste many more such quotes from your columns, but I think this is enough. After all, you should know what you write.

    I guess after your positive comments about the character of most liberals tonight on O’Reilly, you will now try to turn your character assasination exclusively on “liberal elites.” Although I need to remind you that later, when O’Reilly asked you a question about the possibility of civil dialogue, you stated something to the effect that liberals (not liberal elites) have a visceral anger toward anyone with whom they disagree (this paraphrase is close enough, I believe). Was this a slip of the tongue?

    Of course, if the things you accuse liberals of were true, then talking to them would be pointless, i.e. all these sweeping allegations about liberals serve to shut down dialogue, not to promote it. When dialogue is shut down, what is left for those with whom you have strong differences? Screaming? Name calling? Threats?…

    If you are now to focus on “liberal elites,” please define that term. Are they rich liberals? Are they celebrity liberals? Are they liberals in the field of journalism and/or punditry? And do you know enough “liberal elites” to engage in sweeping character assasination? Or are you just irked by certain liberal elites?

    Remember, you complained bitterly about the MSM supposedly making the entire Tea Party movement out to be racist, even if there are, at most, ten or twenty racists among them. Incidentally, I agree with you. It’ hard, perhaps impossible, to accurately generalize about members of the Tea Party movement, at least some of whom are very decent, fair minded people. You need to show those on the “other team” the same fairness. Sometimes you do, but you frequently go way over the top and do what you accuse all or most of “them” of doing.

    Anyway, congratulations on what appears to be a new found desire to promote civil dialogue among those with whom you have real disagreements.

    Incidentally, I don’t think any of the right wing or left wing demagogues had anything to do with the shooting last Saturday (and I don’t include you as a demagogue). Finally an adult took over and told all the children to stop the food fight. I know “the other team” ignited it, but what good is it to jump into a food fight? You have shown that you can issue strong and piercing criticisms without ad hominen attacks or ignorant generalizations. Why don’t you exclusively aim your fire at the guilty members of the “other team,” without impugning the whole team? Or, when you generalize, do so with foresight and extreme caution. Remember, you’re trying to promote dialogue, right?

    On another matter, Dupnik started off by saying that all elected officials whom he knew, were the subjects of death threats and this would eventually prevent any good people from running for office. That was non-partisan and, I thought, not inappropriate. I also thought it was non-partisan when he said that we should all turn down the vile rancor. At first, he didn’t mention names or “sides.” Yes, I know, he later stepped in it. And he was rightly nailed for it. He should have merely said that he has no evidence to connect all this to the shooting, but that we must nonetheless all come together as Americans, and then just left it at that. I think it’s fitting to find a positive in a tragedy, as long as it is a positive for all involved.

    • Ron Kean

      Things he accuses liberals of are true and if you were a conservative you’d also feel that talking to liberals in many if not most cases is pointless. If they were able to listen to conservatives, Chris Matthews and his ilk would have conservatives on their shows like Fox has liberals like Williams, Rivera etc. They don’t. They refuse to hear it so in most cases it’s pointless to try.

      And I’m getting tired of cliches like…’not EVERY single one…’, ‘there are SOME who listen…’ etc. We know MSNBC would no more put a conservative commentator on the air than they would concede that Fox has balance by showcasing a plethora of liberal commentators.

      Liberal elites are ga-zillionaires who want to be perceived as Gandi. We who struggle to pay taxes and pay most of the taxes in the USA have to listen to them say we should pay more as half the nation pays nothing and many, like John Kerry try to skip out on hundreds of thousands of dollars of taxes on his yacht.

      Academics who can’t be fired talking down to those of us who can be fired tomorrow. Hollywood stars who think we care about them rather than the character their writer invented. And what about rich journalists who for years have fed us news and denied us news based on their whim and think they can create the whole of information that they think we deserve or not. They’ve existed for years and now they have competition and they can’t stand it.

      Zillionaires condescend to Sarah Palin who worked her way up from obscurity to a person of influence while being a mom and wife. They think the coasts are cool and the rest is not. They think Ivy League degrees are good and the rest is not. These people exist. You can’t deny that. They live in seclusion rather than integrated neighborhoods like so many of us.

      Guilty members? Read ‘The 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America’ by Bernard Goldberg. How many more names will make you satisfied?

      • Bob Hadley

        How do you know I’m not a conservative? I know conservatives who agree with me. And many of my liberal friends consider me a conservative. With some liberals it is, in fact, pointless to try to have dialogue. But, it’s also pointless to try to have dialogue with many conservatives. Critical thinkers span the spectrum – left, right, center. On the other hand, bigots span the spectrum – left, right, center. I can name a 100 conservatives who are screwing up the country. But so what? That does not prove anything about conservatives in general.

        If you really think all or most liberals are as you say, then your exposure to the world is stunted.

        • Ron Kean

          I think it’s trite but it seems that I should use the ‘not every single…’ template over and over and over. Then again sometimes I don’t care if anybody thinks I include every single solitary liberal who lives and breathes on this planet today. I’m just angry about the Palin accusations and would like to see a high visibility liberal get angry too and put down Matthews and the NYT. Fox had some nice things to say about Obama’s speech. That’s the difference.

          And I disagree with you about the percentage of conservatives who are unhinged. Conservatives will happily talk to anyone on the air, will invite anyone to talk, and they say it. Andrew Brietbart has even offered money to anyone to disprove his assertions as has T. Boone Pickens.

          That’s why conservatives rule radio. Liberals will blow a blood vessel if certain people come on. Conservatives have more open minds. They hang up on insane callers.

          You don’t know about my world and personal insults speak volumes.

          • Bob Hadley

            I didn’t speak about “your world.” I spoke about “the world.” In the world there are all sorts of libeals and all sorts of conservatives. You keep refering to Talk radio and cable talk shows . They are not representative of the world of liberals and conservatives….And i don’t think I leveled a personal insult at you. If my use of the word “stunted” insulted you, I’m sorry. Maybe I should have been more politically correct. But the word has a specific meaning, and I think it’s use was apt.

            Thousands of husbands throughout the country beat their wives. Shall we say “many if not most of all husbands are wife beaters”? Or shall we say “well, not every single husband is a wife beater, but….” Of course not, that would be absurd and bigoted. There are many church goers who are hypocrites. Shall we say “many if not most church goers are hypocrites”? Or shall we say “not every church goer is a hypocrite, but….” Of course not, that would be absurd and bigoted.

            By the way, how many of the tens of million of liberals in this country do you know well enough to comment on their character?

          • Bob Hadley

            One more thing: I never spoke about a percentage of conservatives who are “unhinged,” a term I ascribed to no conservative. I said that it is pointless to have dialogue with “many” conservatives and that I could name 100 conservatives who are screwing up this country. I don’t even know 1% of 1% of all conservatives, so assigning a percentage would be presumptuous, unless of course I was relying on some poll. And I know of no polls showing how many conservatives are irrational,etc. If there were such a poll, I’d be highly suspicious of its methodology.

        • Guest2

          Bob, Ron said you’re not a conservative?
          I’m looking for those words in his first reply to you.
          As for “personal insults”, I’m pretty sure Ron is referring to what has happened to Palin, and if you don’t think what some lunatic did who never even met Palin led to personal insults towards Palin, you ought to see all of the death threats that were caught lodged against her on facebook and twitter.
          There is a video of them all compiled on youtube. It was pretty sad that so many people could senselessly hate so much.

          • Bob Hadley

            Guest2,

            In his 01/14 post above–first paragraph–Ron said “…if you were a conservative….” I asked him how he knows that I’m not a conservative.

            He claimed I was leveling a personal insult at him when I said that if he really thinks all or most liberals are as he says then his exposure to THE world is stunted. I can’t be sure, but I think he may have reacted to the word “stunted.”

            I doubt he was referring to what happened to Pailn. The “personal insults” comment was directed at me. i did not and have never lobbed personal insults at Palin. I have been critical of her public persona insofar as it has entered the policitcal arena, however strictly in terms of political issues.

            It’s unnfortunate that there is so much hate and vitriol in politics or, for that matter, anywhere. I confront pettiness and vitriol in those on the left as well as those on the right. That’s one reason why conservatives ideologues often think I’m liberal and liberal ideologues often think I’m conservative. It’s this us vs them, “you’re either with us or you’re against us mentality.

    • Paul Courtney

      The quotes are plainly not “character assassination”, though they are generalizations. As such, they do not impugn (never mind assassinate) any individual’s character. Do your liberal friends have some sort of collective character? Anyway, you inject these comments under a column about actual character assassination by liberal journalists who still are forcing their narrative (meanies on the right cause violence) into a situation that has NOTHING to do with right or left. What do you think of that?

      • Bob Hadley

        In his quotes above, as well as many of his other remarks, Bernie characterizes liberals as hateful, intolerant and hypocritical. Ergo, he is impugning liberals’ character. That is obvious.

        Generalizations obviously pertain to all individuals in the groups about whom the generalization are made. This is almost axiomatic. Qualifiers like “most” or “many,” which Bernie uses only sometimes, are still targeting many or most individuals in the group. When one has had bad experiences with a few or several members of a group he often tends to blame the whole group and to think the whole group behaves that way, i.e. he will often tend to think with his emotions about that group. That’s why some women hate men, some men hate women, some whites hate blacks, some blacks hate whites, etcetcetc……. The examples are endless.

        Many of Bernie’s criticisms of the left are apt. When I am confronted with excesses or bigotry on the left, which I not infrequently do, I confront them in kind. That is one reason why MANY of my liberal friends think I’m conservative. As for some sort of “collective character” for ALL of my liberal friends, I assume you are asking me to generalize about aspects of their character. It would be very difficult for to make a responsible generalization about the aspects of the character of my liberal friends as opposed to my non-liberal friends.

        I get to know scores of people on a regular basis. Although I get to know their character well, I have no idea what their politics are. If I were to guess whose politics were liberal and whose were not, using Bernie’s generalizations as a guide, I’d probably be misjudging a lot of people. As another example, Jurors who are confined with other jurors for weeks or even months at a time sometimes report that they have no idea what the politics are of their fellow jurors, even in trials of political figures. Think about all the people you know well. Of those whose politics you do not know, how certain can you be whether or not they’re liberals?

        • Paul Courtney

          Of those whose politics I don’t know, a generalization about liberals doesn’t apply. Bernie’s comments that vex you so are usually made in response to a specific instance of media bias, usually liberal, often hateful and hypocritical. Like the present story. Nearly all of the posters have no difficulty looking past the use of “liberals”, understanding he doesn’t mean “every liberal who walks the earth past present future, including those people whose politics we don’t know but we assume are liberals”. Instead, we see him point to several liberal pundits and politicos who continue to blame right wing rhetoric for an act of violence, long after it becomes clear the shooter was not influenced by it, indicating the malice of liberals who are identified at the outset of the particular piece. Your long response still avoids my question-what do you make of these liberal commentators, or are you just gonna stick to your own narrative?

          • Bob Hadley

            My “own narrative” was responsive to your reply, a narrative which you didn’t appear to read. Again, generalizations apply to all members of the group about whom the genralization is made – liberals, conservatives, men, woman, whites, blacks latinos, asian-Americanes, etc. A generalization states that of all the members of a given group, the clear majority have certain general traits. Again, this is almost axiomatic. There is no way that either you or Bernie know the characters of a clear majority of the tens of millions of liberals in this country alone. I’m sure you’d agree that we should all be responsible for our words, especially when disseminated widely.

            To say “I, and other like-minded people, look past his sweeping generalizations and focus on the specifics” makes such generalizations no less irresponsible (and how do you know this, anyway?). And in making these sweeping generalizations, Bernie sometimes falls into the very acts and traits of character that he is condemning.

            Bernie responds to specific instances of media bias, but then he quickly goes on his typical tangent: “liberals this, liberals that…..” What if someone were to document several cases of conservative acting badly (which can be done) and then said “Not every single solitary conservative who is, was or will be warm and breathing is a bigot and a hypocrite, but conservatives are generally bigots and hypocrites”? That would be just as valid as what you are trying to justify.

            I have criticized those relative few – albeit, in some instances, influential – liberals who blamed certain conservative right wing demagogues for the shooting. It was inappropriate and inflammatory.

            I have also criticized Rush Limbaugh for blaming the shooting on liberals and Sara Palin for implying that such baseless attacks from the left can have the results they condemn. Although Rush and Sara were responding to a personal attacks, bad behavior does not justify more bad behavior.

    • joe from louisiana

      You must be in the law profession. My eyes glazed. I get your point but the hypocrisy is what has folks fired up. I listen to MSNBC for laughs sometimes and if anyone needs to tone down the rhetoric it is they. I guess the left needs to tell Maher, Garofalo, Roseanne Barr, Joy Behar, Al Franken and a host of others that appear to speak for the left. These are mean, angry people that use terms like dumb, racist, stupid, inbred, American Taliban, criminal, fascist, Nazi……. when they disagree. It is rather curious those that are all about free speech are so childish when dealing with controversial topics.

      • Paul Courtney

        Yeah, I sometimes glaze my own eyes on my best days. I, too, got some laughs from MSNBC before I downgrade the service, or should I say, upgraded to fewer channels. Now I get my laughs from Bob, who is determined to put quotes on paraphrases, and avoid the bigger issue. I had hopes of pulling him into the conversation, but he’s more concerned with whether Bernie and I will meet with his tens of millions of liberal acquaintances. I only have time for npr, local liberal rag and occasional glance at CNN to get a feel for what they think, and Bernie spent time with Dan Rather, which is more than anyone (but Bob, apparently) can ask. The hypocrisy surely is the point, and an occasional generalization doesn’t change that.

        • Bob Hadley

          I did confront the major issues we were discussing. I agreed with Bernie that some of the commentary in the immediate aftermath of the Arizona shooting were inflammatory and just plain wrong. But you fail to address the major issue that there is also a lot of bigotry, hypocrisy and demagogery coming from the right. As long as you agree with someone’s conclusions, you apparently will overlook his excesses.

          I was wondering why you keep saying the same things over and over again even though I already addressed them. I wrote in plain English. My points were fairly basic. If you don’t understand them, you could read them over again more carefully. But maybe you don’t want to understand. You don’t want to be confused by reason and logic. Perhaps your slogan is “My beliefs – right or wrong!” I was trying to engage you in rational dialogue, but if that’s too painful or unnerving for you, Ithen I won’t disturb you anymore.

          • Paul Courtney

            I thought we were having a rational dialogue. I read your comments again, and don’t see agreement with Bernie on the point at hand, though you conceded the libs started a “food fight”. So incitement to mass murder is a food fight? This was a very malicious and false allegation, made by far more than a few liberal pols, “journalists” (local and national-by the way, how do you know if my local paper speaks for the left?) and letter-to-editor types. I don’t read leftie blogs, was it there, too? Re-reading your comments, you clearly want this story to be about “name calling” on the right. That’s a device used by a “few” liberals to change the subject. Took a few tries, but you finally say you “criticize” those “few” liberals. Strong words there. I still am baffled that you think stories about liberal hypocrisy in the MSM is character assassination of tens of millions of liberals out there, on par with the left’s attempt to tar conservatives with incitement to murder.

          • Guest2

            The issue in the article above was how many liberal journalists and media commentators immediately blamed Palin and the Tea Party for the shooting of Gabrielle Giffords without an ounce of proof that Loughner was tied to Palin or the Tea Party in any way.
            However, Bob may have a point.
            Some of these hateful hypocrites who rushed to blame Palin with no proof might have been conservative. They didn’t sit there and say, “I’m liberal and I blame Palin.” For all we know it may be only conservatives who would do something so hateful.
            Next time we should ask instead of assuming they’re liberal just bc they blamed Palin for having blood on her hands.
            Hey, did you guys see those articles that purported the false notion that Obama dyes his hair when Michelle insists he does not?
            See, the MSM is not just quick to make up nasty rumors about conservatives. These lies are comparable in the minds of most who eat it up (notice I did not call those people “liberal”).

        • Bob Hadley

          You’re posing the equivalence between incitement to mass murder and a resulting food fight?????? You need to back away from that one. As O’Reilly would say, that would put you in the loon category. I have heard no one, not even left-wing ideologues, pose that absurd idea. Nothing incited that maniac to commit mass murder the other week, except perhaps his own delusions. Here, the only food fight occurred and was incited after the shooting. It was started by certain liberals who in effect blamed certain conservative icons for inciting the shooting. They did not, however, say that such incitement was equivalent to a food fight. Certain conservatives climbed in the trough with these liberals.

          I don’t claim to know for whom your local papers speak. My hunch, however, is that they speak for themselves and that letter writers speak for themselves. How many agree with what they say is a different question. But, judging by your postings here, you have probably misconstrued any and all rational discussion that doesn’t conform to your preconceptions.

          You apparently consider the various forms of incivility coming from those with whom you agree as entertainment while you get your knickers in a twist over even the slightest incivility coming from those with whom you disagree. And there is plenty of incivility (i.e. hateful rhetoric, bigotry, hypocrisy, etc.) coming from both sides. You apparently have a double standard.

          Why do you think I have to agree with all of Bernie’s main points in order to have rational dialogue with you? Whatever happened to critical thought? I have stated my agreement with much or most of Bernie’s specific criticisms. I focus on criticizing, where appropriate, Bernie’s language, his generalizations and his hypocrisy. Bernie gets plenty of agreement from other posts. You seem to defend everything he says, and to take offense at anything critical of him.

          And if you think your previous post (purportedly made to a third party but nonetheless posted for anyone to see) promotes rational dialogue, then you need to learn the basics of personal responsibility. You not only need to re-read my posts, IF you want to understand them, but you also apparently need to re-read your own posts.

          • Paul Courtney

            You posed it, not I. You say I don’t read your posts, but apparently you don’t read your posts. Your initial post 1/14 called this a food fight initiated by “the other side”. What the other side initiated was Dupnik and Krugman claiming right wing rhetoric led to this act. Many jumped on board, and even when forced to admit the shooter was not thus motivated, they stuck to the “time to tone it down” narrative. I don’t get my knickers in a twist for mere incivility, it’s constitutionally protected, but I do when it’s alleged (without any basis)(yeah, I’m repeating that) to have incited mass murder. In my post to joe, I cited several sources including my local liberal rag. Your reply below says those cited don’t speak for the left. One other source cited was MSNBC, but you don’t think it speaks for the left. If you won’t read your own posts, don’t worry. I’ll keep reading, I need the laughs. As far as requiring agreement with Bernie, my posts asked you to tell us what you thought of those liberals who used the shooting to blame conservative rhetoric, and you kept telling us we don’t know what all liberals think. I would like to see one lib agree with him when he’s right on the money (like here). I don’t know if you’re liberal, but if you don’t agree with the truth, at least don’t try to change the subject and avoid the truth. If you don’t think you’re changing the subject, then look at your 1/19 post, where the “major subject” was bigotry etc on the right? Still gonna say I’m not reading them?

        • Bob Hadley

          Calm down big guy! You need to relax. I stand corrected: you only understand certain isolated parts of my posts my posts even though you read them. You admitted as much when you said your “eyes glaze over” at my posts. This is apparently because you’re so emotional about these matters that you cannot hold competing ideas in your mind at the same time, i.e. you think either I’m completely with you/Bernie or completely against you/Bernie. If you want to advance a rational discussion, you need to read these posts carefully. If you don’t understand something, just ask. Don’t make things up.

          I wrote two posts on 1/19. The one that began “The PEOPLE you cited do not speak for the left” was obviously intended for Joe from Louisiana–HINT: MSNBC and your local rag are not people. He cited several celebrity liberals who, to varying degrees, profit from their commentary.

          But you haven’t answered the questions I indicated: how can MSNBC and your local rag speak for the left? Who authorized them to speak on behalf of the left? Who on the left has explicitly agreed with everything these media have stated? Again, my hunch is that these media speak for themselves. Just a wild guess. :)

          I have stated several times that I agree with Bernie’s criticism of various liberals’ reactions to the shootings, i.e. various liberals’ statements that certain demagogues on the right were responsible for the shooting were reactive, wrong headed, irresponsible, etcetcetc. Many liberals have also essentially said, in effect, that Bernie is “right on the money” in his criticism above of various liberals.

          Criticizing Bernie for his bigoted, hypocritical and irresponsible statements (aside from his “right on the money” statements) does not deny or negate the above-given criticism of various liberals’ statements about the shooting, as you seem to think. Again, you must develop the ability to keep competing thoughts in your mind at one time if you want to understand what is being said here. And as far as I know, no one–liberal or otherwise–has drawn an equivalence between Bernie’s irresponsible statements and the above-referenced statements of various liberals with respect to inciting the shooting. YOUR words posed that equivalence. If you didn’t mean it that way, you should be more careful of your words. As Rush Limbaugh once said about one of Pres.Clinton’s campaign speeches, “words mean things” (I just wish he’d hold himself to his own standards). Nooooooooo, words did NOT incite the shooting, but they still mean things.

          The food fight that ensued after the shooting was started by the reactive, irresponsible statements various liberals made about various right wing demogogues. Instead of or, in some cases, in addition to taking the high road by responsibly attacking these statements, various members of the right started slinging muck back at these various liberals and, in many cases, at the left in general. Yes, some responses were responsible, but others were not. Again, this does NOT say or imply that both sides to the fight were equally to blame. As with food fights generally, both sides looked childish, albeit one side was more reprehinsible than the other.

          As many conservatives agree, Obama was correct to use this occasion to say that the rhetoric on both sides should be toned down, while making it clear that there was no connection between various vile rhetoric and the shooting and also implying that various liberal reactions were way out-of-bounds. Obama drew no equivalency there either.

          Why be merciless with anyone for uncontrollable crying? Certainly, it’s disconcerting, even embarassing, but is this a burning national, political issue? Or do you just see this as a game where each “team” merely wants to score points? What about keeping your eyes on the ball? What about keeping focused on the health of the nation?

          For your information, the “merely” uncivil speech that you claim doesn’t get your knickers in a twist and the speech implying that certain vile conservative talk incited the shooting that does (as irresponsible as it is) are BOTH EQUALLY constitutionally protected. Yes, in terms of the First Amendment, both forms of speech are equivalent. That’s not my opinion, that’s the language of the First Amendment and the longstanding judicial interpretation thereof.

          But judging from the tone and the garbled nature of your responses, apparently your knickers are perpetually in a twist.

          • Paul Courtney

            Wish I could reply, but I just get so…emotional. I get it now, nobody speaks for anybody, and you don’t speak for you. And when the networks all agree that Obama’s state of the union speech was Reaganesque, they’re all talking from the same page but speaking for nobody. Which doesn’t matter because the real point is, Bernie says bad things about liberals. Gotta go now, and iron my knickers.

      • Bob Hadley

        The people you cited do not speak for the left. They speak for themselves. I don’t condone name calling. Do you condone Glen Beck and Bill O’Reilly when they not infrequently use Nazi metaphors? And both Beck and O’Reilly have complained about people on the left using Nazi metaphors.

        Yes, many on the left are hypocritical, but so are many on the right. The problem is that when you agree with someone’s main point you tend to minimize his blemishes, and when you disagree with someone you tend to maximize them.

        • joe from louisiana

          That is the crux. The American left will not acknowledge their double standard(I know “tit for tat”, the right doesn’t either). I’m not a fan of name calling or mock indignation by either side but this reaction to the shooting was outrageous. I was always a big fan of William Buckley(and Bernie) because he could dismantle an argument without using crass and boorish behaviors.

          • Paul Courtney

            Precisely, this attack is way out of bounds and should be condemned by the MSM, but it isn’t. I try to be civil and appreciate it in others, but I’m ok with some incivility, politics can be rough. I’m ok with them hammering the weeping speaker-and they are right, if Nancy tried that, I’d be merciless. I’m ok with some of the criticism of Sarah P, she’s a big girl and can hit back. What has me riled is so many commentators who begin by saying the shooter wasn’t influenced by the right, but then say heated rhetoric on right causes violence and must be toned down. Well, I’ll abide the harsh rhetoric from both sides rather than let one side and their amen corner in the MSM buffalo the other.

        • Guest2

          I get a good laugh from Glen Beck’s dramatic mud-slinging sometimes as I know he’s way out there and over the top (especially his nazi hysteria which he really should cut down on) but I did not get even the slightest chuckle from yahoo Associated Press and politico writing Palin’s name all over the murder of a 9-year-old child.
          Blaming Palin for the deaths and permanent maiming of several people is not something I see as akin to gossipy rumors about Obama’s hair or Michelle’s red dress.
          It’s not the same. I am not a big Palin fan but I can see the difference here and it is too great for anyone in good conscience to ignore. The MSM owes Palin an apology but she never got it. After a week of Palin-blaming articles run all over the country 35% of Americans thought the Arizona shooting was Palin-incited violence. More than a quarter of Americans still blame Palin for it. My support for her grew as a result of witnessing this cold tarnishing of her reputation. Democrats have used targets on maps too, and they’ve depicted their political enemies being slaughtered by guns and knives. The hypocrisy of saying “Palin has blood on her hands, no proof” while at the SAME time calling for a “toning down” of vitriolic rhetoric strikes me as outrageous hypocrisy. I’m sorry but that’s how I see it.

  • Davis

    Way back in ancient times, before the internet, when there was a “fairness doctrine”, before cable news systems there existed gods and lesser gods. The New York Times was the Zeus of the news world and resided on the new Mount Olympus known as the island of Manhattan. The lesser gods of ABC, CBS and NBC all paid fealty to the supreme lord by taking the stories published in the NYT and regurgitating them on their nightly news broadcasts. Obsequiousness to the great “Grey Lady” was the normal order of things, simply because that was how it had always been.
    But the world of the gods began to change with the advent of cable television and it’s giving birth to a new lesser god, CNN. The order of things on Mount Olympus changed little at first as CNN remained loyal to father NYT, but the mortals below soon became restless with the oppression of the gods, and being what they are, some of them rebelled. Soon they gave birth to a lesser god of their own, FOX, and this new lesser god refused to pay homage to father NYT or any of the other lesser gods for that matter.
    At first this new lesser god struggled under the weight of the older gods but still refused to bend its knee to them. The word began to spread amongst the mortals that perhaps they too need not cast their fealty to the gods of Manhattan. Soon the mortals became empowered to become their own gods! The internet was born and gave birth to its own child the “blogosphere!”
    All this of course angered the gods of Manhattan. “How dare these mere mortal pray to other gods!” they bellowed in their private conclaves. They would never state so publicly but they knew that just as with the gods of ancient Greece they would be rendered powerless without the fealty and prayers of the mortals.
    Soon not only was it their power that became diminished but also that of their demigods, the politicians, over whom they claimed the power to create or destroy at their whim. Not only had these impertinent mortals created their own rivals to the gods of Manhattan but they were beginning to not just challenge, but replace the demigods that had been chosen for them!
    With each new lessening of their power the gods of Manhattan would hurl new bolts of thunder and lightning down upon the mortals from on high. “This FOX you attend is a false god, a usurper of the wisdom of Manhattan! Your new politicians are powerless; we will destroy them just as we have those that came before them that refused to bow before us!” But the mortals continued to ignore the gods of old and their newly created lesser gods of MSNBC and CNBC as well. Fewer and fewer mortals went to their temples of circulation and Neilson numbers, so each new lightning bolt was weaker and farther off the mark that the last! The edifice of their temples, the great taxing and redistributing, all powerful government wherein their demigods had resided, we being redecorated by the mortals in their own image.
    The gods of Manhattan have not passed into mythology yet, the rumblings of Mount Manhattan will continue for some time but they grow weaker with each new cycle of the rebellion of the mortals, but like the Titans that preceded the Greek gods of Olympus they will soon fade into the mists of time, starved of the offerings of circulation and Neilson numbers.

    Read more: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2011/01/13/1975981/the-observer-forum.html#disqus_thread#ixzz1AyDWuJVc